So, you're a Jedi...

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What colour is your lightsaber?

Rainbow (I may have created this one just for me...)
6
13%
Rainbow (I may have created this one just for me...)
6
13%
Rainbow (I may have created this one just for me...)
4
9%
Rainbow (I may have created this one just for me...)
7
15%
Rainbow (I may have created this one just for me...)
4
9%
Rainbow (I may have created this one just for me...)
3
6%
Rainbow (I may have created this one just for me...)
4
9%
Rainbow (I may have created this one just for me...)
4
9%
Rainbow (I may have created this one just for me...)
3
6%
Rainbow (I may have created this one just for me...)
6
13%
 
Total votes: 47

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#161

Post by Booyakasha » Mon May 04, 2015 6:27 pm

What are you guys even talking about.

That is clearly Grand Moff Tarkin giving the order to blow up Alderaan. Clearly Tarkin commands the Death Star, whatever role Vader may have.

I'm not once pretending Vader didn't do some bad stuff. But let's us try to lay the blame where it belongs.
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#162

Post by Valigarmander » Mon May 04, 2015 8:45 pm

^ I mean, he was right there when Tarkin gave the orders, and he didn't do a damn thing to prevent it. At the very least he's complicit in the murder of several billion people.

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#163

Post by Booyakasha » Mon May 04, 2015 9:07 pm

Vader appears to have a much more auxilliary role in ANH. Tarkin bosses him around at least once springs to mind (orders him to stop force-choking Not-Very-Smart Guy at brunch), talks down to him a bit in general.

...I mean, Vader leads boarding parties. Flies around in his TIE fighter, dogfighting with the Rebels as if he's Snoopy or something. Personally interrogates Leia. Clearly Vader isn't second-in-command of the Empire yet, the way he is in ESB. I'll not deny he has some sway, at least as an advisor, but Tarkin is clearly in charge.
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#164

Post by I am nobody » Mon May 04, 2015 10:31 pm

^Yeah, but what's Tarkin gonna do if he decides to say no? I'm guessing that fight lasts approximately half a second.

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#165

Post by Booyakasha » Mon May 04, 2015 11:13 pm

What's the Emperor going to do if Vader kills Tarkin or something? That's the kind of thing that could break up their marriage. Oooh, and they're such a cute couple in RotJ, too.

(*gasp*)...do you think maybe Vader and Tarkin had a thing going on behind the Emperor's back? It would explain so much. It makes sense--------Vader is so thirsty, man. He wants to be loved. And he's off in the Outer Rim, while Palps is back on Coruscant. We don't even get to see them interact through all of ANH. Must be a lot of lonely nights for Vader. So he turns to the only person on board he can, the person he's closest to-----dreamy dreamboat Tarkin. Oh. Ohhhhh. I have such a slashfic to write!
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#166

Post by ScottyMcGee » Tue May 05, 2015 10:39 am

[QUOTE="I am nobody, post: 1532552, member: 34539"][MEDIA=youtube]qBAZGtBfcY4[/MEDIA]

I feel like this, if anything, should've invalidated that redemption almost immediately. The RotS was maybe more personal, but it's hard to come back from blowing up an entire planet.[/QUOTE]

Like Boo said, Vader played a more passive role. True while he didn't push the button, he let it happen. But would he have pushed the button? We also must remember that ANH is before Lucas decided to make Vader Luke's father. Who knows what the scene would have been like if Vader was originally going to be Luke's father from the very beginning?

Buuuuuuuuut, let's not all forget his line earlier in the film.

"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

My view of Vader here then is that he's rather indifferent about it. He separates himself from the Empire's governors. I think if he would have been asked to actually blow up Alderaan, he would have said no, but not out of nicety but because it seems rather silly to him. At the same time, he DOES work for the Empire and seeks to destroy the Rebellion, so he can't dissent. What Vader did is wrong, but I would argue not totally out of redemption. He just played the classic role of "I just stood there watching wrong being done and did nothing."

In retrospect though, RotS revealed that this entire time Vader believed the Jedi/Rebellion to be evil, to want to usurp peace and order, all under the influence of Palpatine. He had been fooled and used as a tool the whole time.

[QUOTE="Valigarmander, post: 1532554, member: 30663"]^ What the hell was that closeup of the explosion? Was there another special edition I missed?[/QUOTE]

I'm familiar with Adywan's work. He wanted to make a less obnoxious "special edition" of the original trilogy. This is the first time I saw his Alderaan take though, but I believe it's more just messing around to show Jar Jar dying.
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#167

Post by Booyakasha » Tue May 05, 2015 11:14 am

...gods below, but I am so uninvested in the prequel saga.

I'm watching them. Thought I'd give them another shot, it being Life Day and all. I'm about a third of the way through AotC, and I'm about ready to barf myself inside out. I'm not engaged. I want to go do anything else.

I mean...I'm not dead inside, here. 'Steven Universe' can make me laugh, cringe, and tear up all in the space of eleven minutes. Prequels barely touch me at all. Suppose that's what happens when you spend hundreds of millions of dollars on special-effects guys and not one cent on getting someone to write or direct for you who's actually good at it. Ugh. Just ugh.

(*imagines alternate reality in which Rebecca Sugar wrote prequel saga, or Pendleton Ward, or Joss Whedon*) (*heart-rending sigh of existential woe*)
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#168

Post by ScottyMcGee » Tue May 05, 2015 11:17 am

Oscar award winning acting

[MEDIA=youtube]2tLf1JO5bvE[/MEDIA]
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#169

Post by Booyakasha » Tue May 05, 2015 11:47 am

god

you know, they managed to get actual chemistry between the actors in 'hudson hawk', one of the stupidest movies ever made

not a bit of it in your prequels

...how does that even happen

you know what, f*ck it, i quit----------disc-eject, boom, done forever

done-ski; done-ion rings

should just throw these sh*tty prequels in the garbage and give them the finger until i die of old age

'hudson hawk' is the new prequel saga-------long live the king
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#170

Post by Valigarmander » Tue May 05, 2015 12:12 pm

Eugh, Hayden Christensen is such a terrible actor. And he got the most important role in the franchise.

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#171

Post by Booyakasha » Tue May 05, 2015 12:26 pm

^correction--------hayden christiansen is a decent actor saddled with the impossible task of performing a major part well despite being both scripted and directed by incompetent modern version of george lucas

think i'll just let the 'most important role in franchise' thing sit for now
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#172

Post by I am nobody » Tue May 05, 2015 12:39 pm

[QUOTE="ScottyMcGee, post: 1532665, member: 31048"]
My view of Vader here then is that he's rather indifferent about it. He separates himself from the Empire's governors. I think if he would have been asked to actually blow up Alderaan, he would have said no, but not out of nicety but because it seems rather silly to him. At the same time, he DOES work for the Empire and seeks to destroy the Rebellion, so he can't dissent. What Vader did is wrong, but I would argue not totally out of redemption. He just played the classic role of "I just stood there watching wrong being done and did nothing."
[/QUOTE]

I really don't see a difference between approving of several billion murders and letting them happen because you don't care, honestly. I barely remember anything from the films and can't comment on the role he played in them, but we're talking about blowing up an entire planet's worth of people for literally no reason. If that doesn't set off any "maybe I'm on the wrong side bells" in your head, you're probably a few orders of magnitude beyond redemption.

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#173

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Tue May 05, 2015 1:17 pm

^ Vegeta says hi.

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#174

Post by ScottyMcGee » Tue May 05, 2015 3:07 pm

We can discuss about the technicalities of right and wrong until the end of time but I think the moral of the story is that Anakin overcame his demons. Rebels were nameless people to him. He was at war and was more machine than man. It took his son to realize otherwise. Also, some of us may think of redemption and the afterlife ghost thing in terms of Western/contemporary theology. The Star Wars universe isn't ruled by gods or an all-powerful all-knowing being who judges all things. The Force is a relatively freeflowing concept; everyone chooses their fate and decides when to be at peace with themselves. Once Anakin did that, he was able to be one with Yoda and Obi-wan. While it may be hard to accept his redepmtion objectively, subjectively he succeeded in overcoming himself.
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#175

Post by Booyakasha » Wed May 06, 2015 8:45 am

I kind of think Vader atones for his crimes a bit when he casts that bitchlord Palpatine down. Also sort of reaffirms his role as guardian by saving Luke at the cost of his own life.
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#176

Post by Valigarmander » Wed May 06, 2015 12:40 pm

I don't know. I feel like Heinrich Himmler would still be beyond redemption even if he tossed Hitler down a shaft and reunited with his long-lost son.

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#177

Post by Booyakasha » Wed May 06, 2015 3:19 pm

Don't see what makes Vader so irredeemible. Especially since you lot seem to be holding him up in comparison to Yoda and Ben, the 'take ownership of slave-army and send them off to die in their millions' guys.

I mean, they didn't even just stand by and let others do it, either. They were active participants in the horrible exploitation of the clone army.
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#178

Post by I am nobody » Wed May 06, 2015 3:50 pm

^I'm not comparing him to anyone, for what it's worth. I just don't see a way back from even being accessory to billions of murders. Killing a somewhat worse guy at the end of your life (and only once your side was starting to lose) doesn't really make up for letting an entire world's worth of lives and cultures be wiped out because you're mad that some (mostly dead) guys didn't take you seriously twenty years ago.

I mean, it's great that he made peace with himself and whatnot, but he was a bit past the point where regretting his actions should've had any bearing on his legacy.

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#179

Post by Booyakasha » Wed May 06, 2015 4:16 pm

I don't think anyone in-verse looks on Darth Vader as a good guy just because he turns his back on the Dark Side before he dies. Maybe Luke does. I don't know. Think it's telling that Anakin Skywalker's force-ghost isn't just Darth Vader with a halo or something.

Oh, and are you serious with the 'once your side is starting to lose' thing? The Emperor totally outfoxed the Rebels. Led them like lambs to the slaughter. It was pretty much for the want of a horseshoe nail that the Empire lost the Battle of Endor. I could say a lot of things about Vader, but suggesting the only decent thing Vader ever did (i.e. trying to save his son from King Evil) was some kind of opportunistic thing...that's just not accurate to what we see onscreen. I think you should adhere to the facts, like how I have at all points throughout this entire thread.
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#180

Post by I am nobody » Wed May 06, 2015 4:32 pm

Like I said, I haven't seen the movies in years, but losing Endor seems like a pretty huge deal. Death Stars and Super Star Destroyers clearly require resources on a scale that even a galactic empire isn't going to replace easily, and what we're hearing of the new film suggests they lost Sullust right before that. They hadn't lost yet, but they weren't exactly in a great position.

I meant that mostly to say that his sacrifice wasn't war-changing. If memory serves, he might not even have known that he'd lost his flagship and the whole station was about to explode, anyway.

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