FFVII Remake thread - Tifa wears a sports bra

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Re: FFVII Remake thread - Turn-Based Mode Announced!

#61

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Thu Sep 26, 2019 11:47 am

Well, look at Final Fantasy 8, which is why I keep bringing it up; we can see exactly what "ethics" entails. There's no need for them to admit to censorship when we see it already.

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Re: FFVII Remake thread - Turn-Based Mode Announced!

#62

Post by I am nobody » Thu Sep 26, 2019 4:53 pm

I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:06 am
The censor doesn't have to be against the artist's wishes, in fact they can like being censored, but that won't make it not censorship. However, if the artist decided they wanted to change it of their own free will then it would just be self-censorship, which is not as bad but still not good. Not that there's any reason to think that the artists suddenly decided that they prefer Tifa's breasts smaller and Siren more covered.
So is your argument that any change to any piece of art ever is censorship, or that it becomes censorship when that change happens to cut content that some group found objectionable?
I'm a bit lazy for a bevy, but if you find that source unsatisfactory I'll provide others.
I did, so I clicked a few links and found the actual context I've been asking for this whole thread:
"It was necessary to restrict her chest," Nomura says in the interview. For the developers, modernising Tifa's design meant creating an athletic look, complete with abs, while retaining her iconic white tanktop and black mini skirt outfit. But, as the ethics department pointed out, Tifa shouldn't look "unnatural" during action scenes, so her chest was "restricted". This resulted in black underwear and a fitted tank top for the remake.
Which more or less confirms that it's a stylistic choice. They were already "modernizing" the design, which they apparently took to mean giving her a more plausible build, and the "ethics department" pointed out that having her flopping everywhere during action scenes didn't make sense with that, so they gave her a bra.

That would still be censorship if you're using either of the above definitions, in fairness. I think the word is pretty meaningless if you apply it that widely, but hey, that's your choice.

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Re: FFVII Remake thread - Turn-Based Mode Announced!

#63

Post by Random User » Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:36 pm

I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:57 pm
Again, I don't think making Tifa's breast smaller is the difference between a T and M rating. I definitely don't think that's why they changed FF8, which was released on PSN in it's original form without an increase in rating for PS3, so why censor the latest release? This doesn't seem to be related to the ESRB.
Ignoring that I wasn't really trying to make a point regarding Tifa's chest with the ESRB thing, I'd like to re-emphasize this.

Image

Also worthy of noting (again) is that her breasts aren't even actually smaller. She's just wearing a sports bra. Lmfao.

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Re: FFVII Remake thread - Tifa wears a sports bra

#64

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:28 am

I am nobody wrote:So is your argument that any change to any piece of art ever is censorship, or that it becomes censorship when that change happens to cut content that some group found objectionable?
The latter, essentially. Think of Jynx, for example.
I am nobody wrote:Which more or less confirms that it's a stylistic choice. They were already "modernizing" the design, which they apparently took to mean giving her a more plausible build, and the "ethics department" pointed out that having her flopping everywhere during action scenes didn't make sense with that, so they gave her a bra.
I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. I don't see why an "Ethics Department" would be mandating "stylistic" changes, and they said that they "make sure all of the game’s content is appropriate" but said nothing about their duty to make stylistic input. It's about as much a stylistic change as FF8's Rinoa's cleavage being reduced, which is to say it clearly is not. If you're saying it's not censorship because they didn't say "hey this game will be censored" then I'm not going to be able to convince you that it has been censored.
Random User wrote:Ignoring that I wasn't really trying to make a point regarding Tifa's chest with the ESRB thing, I'd like to re-emphasize this. Also worthy of noting (again) is that her breasts aren't even actually smaller. She's just wearing a sports bra. Lmfao.
Except she's not just wearing a sports bra, if you look at the video I linked earlier it's clear to see that, and several news outlets reported it as such as well. Of course, there's some damage control ones saying it's just a bra too.

What games are those images from? The left looks like it is Final Fantasy 7 Remake but I can't identify the one on the right. Is that Kingdom Hearts or a spinoff or something? If you're trying to suggest that her breasts aren't smaller compared to the original Final Fantasy 7, of which the remake is...a remake, then maybe you should use an image from Final Fantasy 7. Just an idea LOL.

Image

iTs JuSt a SpOrTs BrA

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Re: FFVII Remake thread - Tifa wears a sports bra

#65

Post by I am nobody » Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:48 am

I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:28 am
The latter, essentially. Think of Jynx, for example.
And you're including the "happens to" in agreeing with that definition? So if I make something that someone finds offensive and then later decide to change it completely of my own volition, that's still censorship?
I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. I don't see why an "Ethics Department" would be mandating "stylistic" changes, and they said that they "make sure all of the game’s content is appropriate" but said nothing about their duty to make stylistic input. It's about as much a stylistic change as FF8's Rinoa's cleavage being reduced, which is to say it clearly is not. If you're saying it's not censorship because they didn't say "hey this game will be censored" then I'm not going to be able to convince you that it has been censored.
I'm saying that, whatever their intended capacity is, in this instance Nomura has acknowledged that they essentially acted as editors and asked for a change that made Tifa fit better with the design changes the art team was already making. And as I've said, that is still censorship under the exceptionally broad definition you're using, but I think most people's understanding of the word requires the change to be against the artist's wishes or intent. I don't see any evidence that that was the case in this instance.

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Re: FFVII Remake thread - Tifa wears a sports bra

#66

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:10 am

I am nobody wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:48 am
I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:28 am
The latter, essentially. Think of Jynx, for example.
And you're including the "happens to" in agreeing with that definition? So if I make something that someone finds offensive and then later decide to change it completely of my own volition, that's still censorship?
If you're changing it completely of your own volition with the intent to censor, then it's still censorship. So, if the artist changed Jynx because he just wanted her to be purple then it's a stylistic change, not censorship. If the change occurred because someone's feefees could be in jeopardy (which was the case), it's certainly censorship--just of the self-censorship variety. And like I said, that's definitely better, but the consumer for which the art is produced is still able to say "hey i **** hate censorship". Of course, others are free to say, albeit incomprehensibly, "hey i **** love censorship thx *REEEEEEEEEEEE abates*."
I am nobody wrote:I'm saying that, whatever their intended capacity is, in this instance Nomura has acknowledged that they essentially acted as editors and asked for a change that made Tifa fit better with the design changes the art team was already making. And as I've said, that is still censorship under the exceptionally broad definition you're using, but I think most people's understanding of the word requires the change to be against the artist's wishes or intent. I don't see any evidence that that was the case in this instance.
By "whatever their intended capacity," do you mean even self-censorship? I suppose it may be broad, but I oppose censorship on principle, personally. Otherwise I wouldn't care about something as seemingly trivial as a color swap or a fictional boob job (unjob?). There may be no way of knowing whether or not the artists here give a crap, but generally speaking I think many do. Regardless of that, it affects the consumer of said product so just because an artist is okay with censorship doesn't make it not censorship.

At any rate, I can guarantee you Tifa's artist wasn't losing sleep all these years, demanding a remake every day for his sole opportunity to rectify his great wrongs. Someone up top is an SJW or scared of them, simple as that.

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Re: FFVII Remake thread - Tifa wears a sports bra

#67

Post by steeze » Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:36 am

Image
While we're on the subjects of boobs in final fantasy let's not forget lulu was doing the dip and peek on the reg.

If I may interject. Tifa's boobs have been on the shrinks for a while. Advent Children took them from blocking her view of her feet to normal size. By the time Kingdom Hearts 2 came out, they had scaled down her model further. Then Crisis Core saw a redesign and any appearance after was a similar size. It didn't really register with me because it always seemed like the better design anyway.

That's why I wouldn't realllly call it censorship but more of an artistic view of her character. She's a bare knuckle brawler. It was cool in the polygon era because they would emphasis the female body more. How else do you give some element of sexuality when all you have to work with is shapes and textures of a lesser generation. Her being able to do triple back flips and superman punch a dude through a wall doesn't really scream busty barmaid to anyone.

I don't think there's many SJWs concerns up top about some cleavage based on their track record. The fact that they are literally selling a game to horny teenagers and adults should tell you that. Not to mention it's a bunch of Japanese video game developers. Neir Automata had 2B out here getting pneumonia with that skirt. This is a perfect example of FF7 vloggers looking for some content to talk and complain about in order to capitalize on the hype and get likes.

Honorable mention to Cindy Aurum from FFXV for inspiring a 2 years of hot blonde cosplayers. She was out here looking like Daisy Dukes so I mean lets be real here.

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Re: FFVII Remake thread - Tifa wears a sports bra

#68

Post by Random User » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:32 am

I REALLY HATE POKEMON! wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:28 am
Except she's not just wearing a sports bra, if you look at the video I linked earlier it's clear to see that, and several news outlets reported it as such as well. Of course, there's some damage control ones saying it's just a bra too.

What games are those images from? The left looks like it is Final Fantasy 7 Remake but I can't identify the one on the right. Is that Kingdom Hearts or a spinoff or something? If you're trying to suggest that her breasts aren't smaller compared to the original Final Fantasy 7, of which the remake is...a remake, then maybe you should use an image from Final Fantasy 7. Just an idea LOL.

Image

iTs JuSt a SpOrTs BrA
It's from Dissidia, but the concept artist is still Nomura (whom also drew Tifa's original concept art). I'm suggesting that it's a little late to whine about Tifa's tits being smaller.

I'm sorry if I'm being overly sarcastic in our conversation but this is just such a bizarre hill to die on.

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Re: FFVII Remake thread - Tifa wears a sports bra

#69

Post by steeze » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:56 am

I'd die on those hills.

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Re: FFVII Remake thread - Tifa wears a sports bra

#70

Post by Apollo the Just » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:50 pm

i re-worded my OP on the religion thread i made in ppr about 60 times because i wanted to convey my message in a way that was still thoughtful of and respectful towards the perspectives of religious people while still being honest. according to this new incredible concept of "self censorship" doing so was censoring myself. i guess being thoughtful and empathetic about how other people might perceive your content is censorship now, and anyone who isnt going around being a complete and total ***hole with no regard for anyone else is censoring themselves.

i think the world would be a better place if there was more of the "i am trying to be empathetic so i have decided to frame my content a different way" ""self-censorship"" than the, you know, North Korea literally executing people who speak out against the government censorship.

EDIT: also, like? IRHP, to SOME extent, I actually agree with you - by which I mean I hate the way some online circles act like if something isn't a completely pure beacon of unproblematicness then the creator is literally Satan. I actively dislike the thought that a creator's morality must be reflected in all aspects of their art. I would be absolutely opposed to a measure saying that depictions of X or Y offensive thing are banned. But that's not what's happening, and if creators choose to depict X or Y less (or more thoughtfully) because people don't like those, then that's literally just... responding to the market. and people are allowed to criticize **** they don't like in art. lololol

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Last edited by Apollo the Just on Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: FFVII Remake thread - Tifa wears a sports bra

#71

Post by I am nobody » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:55 pm

As RU already mentioned Nomura *is* the original artist, so I can't imagine you're going to find a more authoritative source about how the artists feel than his quote, which clearly implied the change was consistent with his new vision of the character. You can think whatever you want about Square executives, but there's no evidence that this change was made because anyone was offended by Tifa's clothing.

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Re: FFVII Remake thread - Tifa wears a sports bra

#72

Post by I REALLY HATE POKEMON! » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:00 pm

I'll respond to the other posts after I get some sleep but how did North Korea even get mentioned lol

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Re: FFVII Remake thread - Tifa wears a sports bra

#73

Post by smol Kat » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:08 pm

Apollo the Just wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:50 pm

EDIT: also, like? IRHP, to SOME extent, I actually agree with you - by which I mean I hate the way some online circles act like if something isn't a completely pure beacon of unproblematicness then the creator is literally Satan. I actively dislike the thought that a creator's morality must be reflected in all aspects of their art. I would be absolutely opposed to a measure saying that depictions of X or Y offensive thing are banned. But that's not what's happening, and if creators choose to depict X or Y less (or more thoughtfully) because people don't like those, then that's literally just... responding to the market. and people are allowed to criticize **** they don't like in art. lololol
/baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarn
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Re: FFVII Remake thread - Tifa wears a sports bra

#74

Post by RinkuTheFirst » Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:25 pm

I don't know if anyone's mentioned it, but SE seems to going hard in the direction of the remake being its own thing. All the characters are still retaining their classic designs in a bunch of spinoff properties like Dissidia, Opera Omnia, etc.

How about we talk about the fact that Reno is showing off his chest now lol

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